Gorbachav55

I have a hard time believing that Terry wouldn't have accepted 7 x $7. Pay him that, Verbeek. But it's not the arbitration numbers themselves that bother me a ton. It does bother me, since I think Terry's $8 million number has more merit than the Ducks $4.5 million, and the arbitrator will take that into account. But it bothers me more that it's even getting this far. It means negotiations are far apart and have broken down. If Verbeek wanted to sign Terry to a long-term deal, he could have, unless Terry is being completely unreasonable with his salary demands. I find that to be the least likely scenario. More likely is that Verbeek has no appetite to sign Terry to a long-term, high value deal. Maybe you're cool with that, but I think it means a lot more pain in the near term.

I saw this comment here or elsewhere - it looks like Verbeek is remaking this team completely in the image he wants, and guys who got here before and don't fit that image are getting the boot. I guess, in a way, I should be happy about that. The thing that plagued most of Murray's tenure is that he was constantly trying to reconfigure the roster behind Getzlaf and Perry based on what team most recently beat them in the playoffs. He couldn't build a cohesive team identity, so players were constantly moving in and out, never really meshing completely. It seems Verbeek is trying to build around a vision - big, competitive, and intelligent. I don't know how well that's going to work out. At some point, you need someone who can score goals. Terry and Zegras can. And Terry, at least, seems to have the work ethic and competitiveness that Verbeek is looking for, even if he doesn't have the size. He also seems to have a good deal of leadership. I don't get Verbeek's lack of desire to have him in the organization. But lowballing an offer like this is just a bad look for the organization. There are a ton of kids coming up who are going to see what's going on and already have their hackles up when it comes time to negotiate. It also is going to have a questionable effect on Terry's trade value, since it seems clear the Ducks are going to be looking to move him in the next couple years (although isn't there a moratorium on trading a player until a certain length of time after an arbitration settlement?). I was hoping for some forward movement sooner rather than later. I'm skeptical that it's ever going to happen, much less happen soon.

There's no doubt that the team lowballs a bit on the arbitration. But even so, I have to think it's pretty rare for a player and an organization to be THAT far apart. And even taking the lowball into consideration, it sends a pretty bad message to the player. I also have to think that if the Ducks put that out there, they're far apart in negotiations on a long-term deal, if they even want a long-term deal. It looks to me like Verbeek doesn't care about Terry being there long-term and we're going to see him traded in the next year anyway. That means more painful seasons in the near future.

Woof. I'm embarrassed to be a Ducks fan. What an insult to Terry. I hope he gets traded to an organization that takes care of him properly instead of this one. The Samuelis, Verbeek, everyone involved should be ashamed. $4.5 million is garbage.

Wow. Pat Verbeek really MIGHT be the worst GM. I think $8 million is a stretch for Terry, but $4.5 million is absurdly low. It's one thing for a team that's strapped for cap space to try to save money by coming in that low. The Ducks are still millions below the salary floor. They haven't spent to the cap in several years. This is just cheap. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I've been optimistic about the Verbeek regime until today. This is bad form, it's stupid negotiating, and it's deliberately devaluing a high level asset that the Ducks desperately need. You suck, Verbeek.

Solomon would ask the arbitrator to split Terry in half.

A good beat writer should be able to get info from other contacts - the agent's office, people who know the player, other team employees, etc. I've always enjoyed Eric Stephens' writing, and he's gotten a scoop here or there, but he's not nearly as plugged in as many other beat writers, particularly now that he's working both the Ducks and the Kings beat. He seems to get a lot more Kings stuff. And we had one more - Helene Elliot? Is that right? I think she moved on.

I want to believe this is true. But we know Verbeek doesn't like long deals, so perhaps he's not offering an eight-year contract. However, I would be surprised if Zegras isn't the one driving this, as you say. A bridge deal makes a lot of sense, given the fact pattern: The Ducks suck but should get better. Zegras's numbers should improve along with them, along with his own development. I know there's debate over whether the cap ceiling matters in these negotiations, but I think it does. If it goes up in the next two years, I would think Zegras's ability to command more money also improves. Zegras does not seem like someone short on confidence in his own abilities. If there's anyone who seems likely to bet on himself, it's Trevor. I know it seems nuts to turn down $64 million guaranteed in favor of, say, $13 million. But I could see Zegras making that call, thinking he could get to $75 or $80 million in a couple years. If he's insisting on one or two years, I'm not sure what Verbeek can do.

No, that's not my argument. In fact, I indicated as much earlier - Zegras is bad defensively and sucks at faceoffs. Which is why it makes sense long-term for the Ducks to think of him (and pay him) as a wing, at least at this point. My argument is that if I'm Zegras and his agent, I'm making the case that I'm a center right now. That's my natural position, it's what I've been playing as, and it's where I want to play the rest of my career. My faceoffs are what they are, but my defensive game was hampered by a coach who had no idea how to teach me to play in the defensive zone. So yes, Zegras is going to ask to be paid like a center, whether he deserves to be or not, because that's where he's played, and the market has consistently shown that centers are paid more. In fact, your numbers bear this out: Considering there are twice as many wingers as centers in the league, this makes complete sense. A more accurate comparison would be: 11 - C 6.5 - W

Centers are considered more valuable and are generally paid more. I don't think that's a disputed point.

In the Christopher Nolan version, we would have seen the phone call from two different perspectives and over two different timelines.

None of those guys are comparable to Zegras. All are much better and have proven much more.

It changes what the Ducks will offer, but that might be part of the hold up with the contract. If the Ducks think they've got their top two centers in Carlsson and McTavish, that pushes Zegras to the wing. If Zegras thinks of himself as a center long-term, now you've got a gap in negotiations that's going to be hard to bridge. The Ducks are going to want to pay him like a wing and Zegras is going to want that 10-15% bump for being a center. As much as I'm all for players getting paid, the Ducks would be right in their analysis here. Why do centers get a bump in pay from wingers who produce similar amounts? Defensive responsibilities (Zegras is pretty bad there) and faceoffs (Zegras is really bad there). I think Zegras's defense can improve under a coach who knows how to teach it, but that's just one more reason why he might opt for a bridge. If he can be a more complete player next year, and get closer to being a point per game guy, he'll want to get paid like a 1C going forward. As for McTavish, I agree with you completely. I think he'll end up as a very good 2C who could play as a 1C if needed. I'd be happy if he becomes more, but I think his ceiling is as a $8.5 million player (inflation not included).

Eh, you will, but it doesn't have to be that way. I think most of the outcomes are still good. If Zegras goes off and the team improves significantly, the Ducks will pay him and I have to think he'd want to stay in a market that loves him. If Zegras stays at his current level and the team improves, hopefully the team will offer him a competitive deal and he'll stay in a winning program. If Zegras goes off and the team continues to struggle, I could see him wanting out. I think this is the least likely scenario, because, barring other weird things, it wouldn't make sense to me that Zegras would be putting up 80 - 85 point seasons and the team is still in the bottom eight of the league. But I think this is the most likely scenario where he forces his way out of town. And if he does, the team should get a nice haul for him, although it won't be equal value (it never is). If Zegras stays where he is and the team continues to struggle, the Ducks might look to move him for a change of scenery, but I think the Ducks could also decide just to keep him around on arbitration deals and kick the can down the road hoping things improve. I also think that if, in two years, the team is still struggling, we see Verbeek get the heave-ho, which might change the game for Zegras. Even if Zegras chooses a bridge, I think it's more likely than not he's here long-term. And if he's not, the Ducks have guys in the system to replace him. I'm not going to stress about it. I just want the deal to be signed so he gets in a full training camp and is ready to go for the season. What I don't want is controversy to begin the season.

I think this is right. 8x$8 is what I'd give him. But I think both Hughes and Aho are different sides of the same coin when it comes to informing Zegras's opinion and why, ultimately, I agree with Bombays that he's likely to take a bridge. Hughes signed his deal after a decent but not great season. He's now worth well more than he signed for. Had he done a two-year bridge, he'd be looking at an extension worth north of $10 million per year. Aho signed a five-year "bridge" deal for $8.4 million after putting up his first point-per-game season. Now he's getting paid big bucks. I expect Zegras to bet on himself and take a $6 - $7 million bridge for a couple years to see where he goes and where the team goes. If he takes off, he'll command $10 million on his next contract. If not, he might look to get out or continue going for short-term deals.

Although Aho had been a point per game player for the four years before that AND the Hurricanes were buying out five UFA years instead of two. There's a huge difference between Aho's situation and Zegras's.

I could very well be talking out of my butt, but I feel like that kind of thing could get (and probably would get) rejected by the league. There might be an explicit rule against it, but I vaguely recall Friedman talking about something like that and saying it would be nixed. Again, I could be wrong, but it feels like it's one of those blatant cap manipulation things that the league would have a problem with.

Robertson's money is included in the $95.9 million cap total.

You're right, I forgot about Murray. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to bury his contract, either through LTIR, or a buy out, or finding a sucker to take most of it.

Hear hear! Sorry, Hampus, I think you're great, but you should never have signed that extension with those losers.

Why did you put "easy" in quotation marks? I certainly never said it was easy. I think there's a fairly clear path to getting close (Muzzin on LTIR, Brodie getting the boot, Woll going down since no team carries three goalies), and then they might have to do some manipulating on the margins. But getting rid of Brodie without retaining salary will take some work. My point was only that looking at that $12 million overage isn't an accurate reflection of how far over they are. I do think it's fair to ask how they'll get rid of that last million.

Part of that is $5.6 million for Muzzing on LTIR. I'm guessing Brodie gets bought out or dumped (they'd have to include an asset to get rid of him, but there's no point in keeping him around with Klingberg on the roster). Woll will be sent down. If they can avoid taking any hit on Brodie's contract, that will get them pretty close to compliance. So they're not as far off as they look right now, but moving Brodie is the key. I hope no NHL team helps them out, but you know Arizona is taking that contract.

Yeah, I'm not happy with this, either. Verbeek looks more and more like an Yzerman clone every day - slow building process, avoiding long contracts (although Larkin just got one), playing hardball with RFAs. And that's fine. Yzerman is a respected GM. But two things with that. One is that Yzerman's rebuilding process in Detroit, although looking better now, has received mixed reviews. It's taken a LOOOONG time, and there are still no guarantees that team is going anywhere. Two, Yzerman has gotten the benefit of the doubt because he's Yzerman. He helped build a winner in Tampa (although he didn't stick around to finish the job) and is just a venerated figure in the NHL altogether. Verbeek is...not that. He isn't going to get the automatic respect from his peers or the hockey world, nor does he deserve it. He needs to earn it. And while the jury is still out, they're starting to get a little bit antsy in that juror's room. Verbeek had a few jobs this summer. The overarching one was to give this team a clear identity and path. That's nowhere near done because some of the underlying jobs (acquiring or removing players to fit that identity) have not been done. He's overpaid a couple of seasoned veterans to bring leadership to the locker room. I'm totally good with that, but that wasn't exactly difficult. It's not like he shopped around. He basically said, "Gudas and Killorn are the guys we need and I'm going to keep adding zeroes to the check until they agree to come here." Not exactly subtle artistry, but I'm fine with it. However, the big job was the RFAs. If Terry and Zegras and Drysdale fit his vision for the team, getting them signed to deals that make sense (probably long-term for Terry and Zegras, probably a bridge for Drysdale due to injuries and defensive depth) was priority number one. If they don't fit his vision for the team, he needs to figure out a way to deal them for assets that do, and he needs to get equal value. The fact that NONE of them are signed this deep into the offseason portends rough waters ahead. I realize there are still two months until training camp, but Terry's arbitration case is approaching, and that should be avoided if at all possible. And I think that arbitration case is going to set the tone for the other negotiations. And if he is shopping them, the price is probably dropping rather than increasing as the days go by. Let's get things done, Verbeek. I'm happy to defend you as long as you still have room to prove you're good at your job. But I need to see something soon or I'm going to have to give in to the Saskduckfan crowd and let them light the torches.

Used properly meaning playing against guys half as good as in the NHL. I agree.

Fisix is right on this one.